In this episode of Mainframe Coven, Jessielaine Punongbayan (Product Manager, Dynatrace) and Richelle Anne Craw (Software Engineer, Beta Systems Software) chat with Sudharsana Srinivasan, a champion for mentorship and mainframe advocacy. She opens up about her journey from studying computer science in India to leading firmware development at IBM, sharing the lessons she’s learned along the way. Sudharsana talks about her passion for helping the next generation, the value of connecting what you learn to real-world opportunities, and how mentorship can create a ripple effect of growth and empowerment.
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[Intro Voice]: This is the Mainframe Connect podcast brought to you by the Linux Foundation’s Open Mainframe Project, sponsored by Phoenix Software International and Vicom Infinity, a Converge Company. Mainframe Connect includes the “I am a Mainframer” series, the riveting “Mainframe Voices” series, and other content exploring relevant topics with mainframe professionals and offering insights into the industry and technology. Today’s episode is from the 10-part “Mainframe Coven” mini-series honoring the past, present, and future women of IT.
Jessielaine (Jelly): Hello and welcome to Mainframe Coven, a podcast about real stories from the essential yet often unseen minds behind the machines. We are your hosts. My name is Jessielaine Punongbayan and I’m a Product Manager for Dynatrace.
Richelle: My name is Richelle Anne Craw and I’m a Software Engineer for Beta Systems Software. Welcome to our new episode!
Jelly: Welcome everybody! We are super excited for this episode, because joining us today is Sudharsana Srinivasan. She’s a long time mentor and former co-leader of Open Mainframe Project’s COBOL Programming Course. She’s also a former IBM Z Systems Advocacy Program Manager and now she’s an IBM Senior Firmware Development Manager.
Sudharsana, welcome and thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to the Coven!
Sudharsana: Thank you! Thank you so much to the both of you and Mainframe Coven for having me. I’m super excited to be here and talking about mentorship
Richelle: Yeah, welcome to the coven! We really wanted to speak with you on this podcast because I feel like the three of us have things in common. But I want to hear from you, your tech journey: from when you started in programming and then when you focused on COBOL and then to your current role right now.
Sudharsana: Okay, so growing up in India, when I was getting about to High School is when a lot of talk around Computer Science had started. So I was very curious, what is Computer Science? And so I told my dad, “You know what, I’m gonna do Computer Science.” And he’s like, “What is that? I don’t know. We’ll figure it out.”
So off I go to High School and major in Computer Science. So in India the way we do it is: Math, Physics and a third subject. So I wanna do Math, Physics, Computer Science. And one of the first classes, and I vividly remember walking from one building to another, because the Computer Science classes couldn’t be housed in our same building. So we walked over to another building and the first programming I ever did was on an Intel 8088 chip: Assembler Programming. It was so fun. So that sort of got me started on the journey.
And I said I wanna learn more. I went ahead and did my Bachelor’s in Computer Science as well. That’s where I got my first sort of flavor into programming.
We started with guess what? BASIC. Haha.
And you know that’s what they say, right? The very best place to start is the beginning. So I started with BASIC and COBOL was part of my curriculum in Bachelor’s. And it was really fun programming language. I really actually liked the way it’s structured and how you use more of that English type language and all of that.
I did my final year project using COBOL. We built an inventory system for a local medical labs. That was our project as a team project.
And so that’s sort of where my journey with Computer Science and sort of passion for programming and all of that started.
After my Bachelor’s in India, I moved over to the US and that’s where I did my Master’s in Computer Science.
And off I go to start my career in being a software developer, software engineer.
Years later, I started my career at IBM as a Firmware Developer. And you’ll hear me say this a few times: I’m amazed at how life comes full-circle. I started as a Firmware Developer, and worked in that role for about 10 years. And then moved to the IBM Z Ecosystem team and got a huge flavor for what it means to work with the ecosystem. How do you build that ecosystem around the technology that we’re building? So that was a great experience.
And then full circle: I come back and here I am leading the team that I was a part of as my first job/role at IBM. It’s really exciting. And that’s me here today.
Jelly: Were there moments that made you say, “I want to help others to follow this path”? And if you ever had that kind of moment, was there a particular experience or a person that made you realize that you wanted to do that?
Sudharsana: So there wasn’t like a single moment, right, Jelly? Rather it’s a realization over time. And it’s almost a point of where I want my hindsight to be foresight for that next generation. Which is why I’m really passionate, actually, about mentorship. Early on in my career, I did not realize that having a mentor is critical. It’s important in your journey to be able to get you to think about what are the different ways or career pathways you could think about, right? And I spent a lot of time doing what I was doing and doing it really well but really never getting anywhere, because I wasn’t thinking in that way.
So I think over time, I realized that that’s sort of my pitfall, if you will, right? And then realized, I should be looking at where and how can I tap into my own network and see who could help me and mentor me. And, you know, that has definitely helped me going into my career for later on. So that I think has been my sort of awakening moment, if you will, where I realized I want to do this for others so they don’t have to realize it much later.
So I actually talk to students even before they’re getting into their careers: think about mentors. Think about who in your network you can tap into, so you can draw from those experiences, right?
Richelle: I like how you talked about the talking to students, because I want to go back to your time as a student. When you were in India and even before your Bachelor’s, you already said that you wanted to try Computer Science and the programming aspect. So I wanted to get your perspective, because Jelly and I, we spoke about this in one of the first episodes. How does it compare: your experience as a woman in STEM in India, and then when you moved to the US for your Master’s, and then now working with students as mentees globally?
Sudharsana: Yeah, so as a student in India, both in high school and of course in my Bachelor’s, what I noticed is I think it’s a cultural thing. So I’ll phrase that as well. It’s a cultural thing, where everyone is thinking about engineering: STEM, engineering, or some kind of Sciences degree. That’s the mindset you go with when you’re thinking about college. So yes, you would have so many. The scale of the number, girls and boys, the scale of which students are studying STEM majors is just enormous. And I come to the US, I’m doing my Master’s. Again, I see quite a few girls and women in STEM, which is great.
Going into my first job, though, and also at IBM. Coming into the firmware team for Z firmware was I think the first shock that I had, because I then was the only woman in the room in the Z firmware team when I got started. And so that then puts you in a little bit of a, “What is going on here? How did this happen?” And then you suddenly start to develop syndromes that you may have not even known, like imposter syndrome. That’s part of my journey. And I think the issue is where I took much longer to realize that I need to have a mentor, someone who can talk through these things with me. But it’s real, right?
So you then doubt yourself, “Do I really belong in this field or at this table? Look at everybody, they have so much experience and I’m not sure I’m able to catch on.” All of that, that’s real. It was part of my experience as well. So these are the things that I’ve taken as part of my personal experience and journey that I then want to make sure I actually give back.
But I will tell you this, over the last many years that I’ve been both at IBM and looking at where we are today, big difference, right? And I’m so happy to see that we have so many more women in STEM, in the teams: whether it is Software Development, Design, Test, Product Management. So it’s really wonderful to see that dynamic has changed.
Jelly: You once mentioned that there was a ‘missed opportunity’ in understanding COBOL and its real world importance. How did that experience shape the way that you mentor others?
Sudharsana: Yeah, so specifically that ‘missed opportunity’, if I can sort of tell the context and the story to it. I said I did COBOL and really loved it in college when doing my Bachelor’s. What I call the ‘missed opportunity’ is that connection of: here’s your skill that you enjoy, you’re good at, and the connection to mainframes as a platform where you can build a career using that skill. I think that dot wasn’t connected, right? Whether it was the professor in college who did not connect the dots or I did not do my own research to connect the dots, you know, whichever way we say it. So that to me was a missed opportunity, right?
Because I then dropped COBOL. I did my Master’s and off I go. I’m programming in C and C++, working on amazing cell systems for Ericsson and things like that. But I came back to IBM and as a firmware developer, again, I am continuing to work on programming languages that are not COBOL.
But when I had the opportunity to work with OMP, Open Mainframe Project, on COBOL Programming Course, that’s when I realized this is the opportunity that I need. To be able to talk to that next generation of learners, whether you’re a mainframer yet or not, that next generation of learners and say, “Here’s a skill, which is COBOL, learn it through this programming course and guess what? You can leverage it on careers in the mainframe industry. You could be an application developer.”
Is this the only language you need to learn? No. It is not an “either or”, right? It’s an “and”. And I always believe that it’s all about bringing that “and” in. It’s COBOL and Java and Python and whatever else that you want to learn. Because learning is a lifelong journey, right? You may or may not use it at work, but it doesn’t need to stop you from learning, because it’s something that will always help you draw from all the different sources that you have to make you a better version of yourself, whether it is as a programmer or a design person or product management. So I think that’s sort of where I take that missed opportunity: was that connection of the dots. So I wanna make sure that I connect those dots or help, at least, even if I’m not the one who’s actually connecting it. Through mentorship, help the students or the learners or next generation connect those dots to see how the skills they’re learning can be put to use within the mainframe platform.
Richelle: I really like that it’s: COBOL “and”, it’s not COBOL “or”. It can be multiple things at once. For sure.
And so can you elaborate more on the COBOL Programming Course? How do you use that program to, as you say, connect the dots? And the design principles on how you built the course or how that mentorship works?
Sudharsana: Okay, yes, so there’s two programs within the Open Mainframe Project. Of course Open Mainframe Project has multiple projects and the two that I’m talking about here specifically is COBOL and then, of course, the Mentorship Program. We’ll talk more about that, too, through the course of this podcast.
But the COBOL Programming Course, the intention there was: how do we bring COBOL to our learners in a way that it is easy for them to learn the programming language, right? So think about when and how you learn COBOL and you’re asked to work it. The first thing that comes to mind often is the green screen and having to work in that environment. And the learners today, when you are going to school, the IDEs that you use and what you’re familiar and comfortable with, are very different. So the goal of the programming course was: how do we make it so that the focus is on learning COBOL and not so much the environment in which you have to program it. So we went with VS Code. We leveraged our sister programming project in OMP: Zowe. COBOL Programming Course and Zowe go hand in hand. And making it easy to get to the course itself, making it easy to learn. So then you’re learning COBOL as a programming language and not worrying about all the surrounding environment that you need to also, then, learn. You’re comfortable with IDEs like VS Code, off you go. And so that’s sort of the basic principle. Like you said, Richelle, that we used to make it easy to learn COBOL and add COBOL, too, as a feather to your cap.
Jelly: What I love about the COBOL programming course is that it attracted this widespread participation. It’s like a lot of people have joined in and what I admire is that you were able to handle all of this attention from all of the learners. So based on your experience, what is the strategy that you use to scale that mentorship without losing the quality?
Sudharsana: Yeah so like I said, mentorship program is another program within OMP and we are part of that program as well. And every summer, we offer the COBOL Programming Course as an opportunity for students around the globe to apply to be a mentee for the summer project. I think the Open Mainframe Project themselves, as a project, have done a fantastic job with the mentorship program: to be able to scale it, to be able to bring all of the projects under the OMP banner, give them the opportunity to bring mentees from around the world and have our project leads and contributors be those mentors to the students for every summer. So that’s been a fantastic job that the team has done.
The COBOL Programming Course, as a participant of that mentorship program, what we do is bring students and just have them look at the course, take the course, learn it. That’s the first step, right? And think about what can be added. So a couple of times the students who have come in, have had some really bold ideas and it’s been amazing. One of the students wanted to add more of an automation and how can you add CI/CD so that you can bring in testing. Because the course really focused on programming not so much on the testing of it aspect. So that was the first thing that one student added. And that student then went ahead and turned around and became our mentor for that next cycle of mentorship.
You know, to me mentorship is about creating that next generation of leaders, right? How do we empower them so that they feel that they have all that they need to be able to go ahead and mentor that next generation. I think if we can get that ripple effect, that’s success in mentorship.
So that’s sort of, in my mind, the best way to scale. And I think the OMP mentorship program has done a really nice job and given us that platform to be able to create those mentors from mentees.
Richelle: Thank you for sharing that. That’s really inspiring that now the mentee became the mentor the next summer. It’s amazing.
So talking about the summer mentorship program, can you share with us some of your biggest learnings as a mentor or some examples of some mentorship relationships that you built?
Sudharsana: Absolutely, yeah. The best, the most important thing for us to remember as mentors is to be there, actively listen. Let the mentee walk through, even if it is a problem, let them walk through it. And be that sounding board, right?
In 2024, I think I mentioned, one of the students who came as a mentee, had this lofty goal and wanted to do CI/CD, which was amazing. Because COBOL Check is another Open Mainframe Project group and that’s the project that does more of unit testing. And that is what we incorporated into the COBOL Programming Course.
That was in 2023 as part of the summer mentorship. And that mentee came back around and was a mentor. So that’s a big story, a success story.
In 2024, we had two amazing mentees again, and they thought, “Hey, you have this CI/CD and all of the testing pieces. We wanna automate all of it.” Bring in automation. Why not? And they wanted to bring in GitHub actions and work through that. So there were a bit of roadblocks, technical challenges, if you will, through the process. What I then realized is, I started to dive in, to start solving the problems as well. So I had to sort of stop cold on my tracks and say, “OK, wait, I’m not here guiding anymore, I’m actually co-creating.” Which is not the role of the mentor, right? You don’t want to give them the answers, because you then take away their ability to discover the solution, which is the goal of mentorship. Let the mentee discover the solution, right? You don’t want to give the solutions to them.
So I think that was my biggest learning, almost a faux pas on my part, of diving in and starting to build and provide the solutions, as opposed to taking a step back and seeing how they are walking through all of that and just being a guide. Yeah, that was a big learning.
So it’s top of mind now every time I mentor: don’t give the solution.
Jelly: Don’t give them the answers, let them discover it.
Richelle: Let them make their own mistakes first.
Jelly: Exactly.
Sudharsana: Exactly, yeah. I mean it’s part of the learning, right? I think sometimes that’s the best way you learn is: make those little mistakes. It sticks with you much longer.
Jelly: Sometimes it actually helps not just in mentorship, you know, just in life in general that you need to learn your own mistakes. So I really love all of these things or these examples that you shared with us. Do you believe that it’s so crucial for us to pass on the knowledge to the next generation especially with the context of the mainframe technology?
Sudharsana: Sorry, can you repeat the question?
Jelly: I mean why do you believe that it’s so crucial for us to pass on the knowledge to the next generation especially in the context of mainframe technology?
Sudharsana: Yeah so, you know, we’ve been all hearing about this for a long time, which is the maturing workforce and the knowledge that you’re going to be losing with the maturing workforce and folks retiring. And it’s something I’ve been hearing about since I started and even now.
So even more in today’s world and where we are, I think mentorship is crucial because that’s the best way for us to share knowledge, share our expertise and enable and empower that next generation. Some of the skills may be lost, because from doing something for many years, you have these finer skills and intuition that you could bring to a problem that we may not be able to capture. But at least the knowledge that you have is what we can capture in the form of sharing it through mentorship.
I think you know the more we can take on and talk to the next generation of learners and bring them on board to the mainframe is the best way that we can ensure that this platform is the platform of the future.
Jelly: And the mainframe, you know, it will last longer than me. So it’s nice to have, to ensure that and pass on the knowledge to ensure the mainframe’s future.
Richelle: So I’ve just recently started on a journey of mentorship. I’ve started becoming a mentor myself. But I would like to hear if you have any advice for mentors or mentees, specifically women mentors or mentees, where do we start? Where do I find mentees or where do I find mentors?
Sudharsana: Okay so there is the IBM Z Advocacy program. I know, Jelly, in the introductions, you said I was an Advocacy Program Manager. That’s sort of the program that I worked on, built sort of ground up. And one of the things that we worked on as part of the advocacy program is a mentorship program as well. And that is a way that we can match a mentor and a mentee.
So for mentors out there, Richelle, for yourself as well, if you’re looking to be a mentor and want to sign up, I would say sign up to be a mentor. You know, it’s as simple as going to ibm.biz/mentor-today. That’s a way that you can sign up to be part of that mentorship program.
And as an early tenure professional, someone who’s new to the mainframe, I would say join the New to IBM Z User Group, cause that’s a great resource where you can find others who are like yourself, early tenure professionals, who are sharing their knowledge and their experiences, questions. It’s a really good place for you to sort of find your own community, if you will. And the reason I mentioned that is as part of being part of the New to Z User Group or that community, you could request a mentor and that way then you are connected to the mentors who have signed up. So that’s sort of that mentorship program that we put together as part of our advocacy program as well. Because guess what? Mentoring is one of the ways that you can advocate for IBM Z. So you then end up being an advocate for IBM Z, you’re mentoring, so it’s a win-win all around. For both you as a passionate mainframer who wants to give back, you then are incentivized by being an advocate, by earning those advocacy badges, and our next generation is also gaining from it because you are there sharing your knowledge and expertise with them. So they can learn, they can skill up, they can grow in their careers as well.
Richelle: What I like about these programs, like the IBM Z Program and then the Open Mainframe Project Mentorship Programs, you get a lot of individuals from different companies, different backgrounds. And it’s a way as well to for newcomers to see what are the different roles that could be available within the mainframe space. So I think it’s important that people will see, “Oh, these are programs that are available, I can sign up.” And as a mentor as well, that there’s an opportunity there for me.
Sudharsana: Absolutely. And the program also comes with support content. It’s like a mentoring guide and things like that. So someone who has not mentored before and you’re wondering if or not if this is something you could do, I would definitely say, please, do take a look at that. Because there is a mentoring guide that can also be something you leverage and use to walk you through that initial part of your journey.
Jelly: So I’m just curious, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, that young woman studying in India or starting in tech, what advice would you you would you give her?
Sudharsana: One advice, can it be three words?
Jelly: Of course, of course.
Sudharsana: What advice I would give my younger self is what I, again, to the point about: my hindsight is what I want for others to take away as something they do early on in their journey. It is to create, build, and own. So create it, build it, own it. What do I mean by it?
Create a network of mentors. What I always tell my mentees is, no one mentor is going to be able to give you everything you’re looking for so have a network of mentors. Some may be technical mentors, some might be more of a professional mentor or leadership that you’re looking for. Things like that.
And build that relationship with your mentors. Mentorship is a two way street, right? As a mentee, you have to come, you have to be prepared, you have to be ready to also give as much as the mentor is willing to give, share their experience and knowledge. So you have to build that relationship.
And, finally, own it. You’ve got, as the mentee especially, you’ve got to own that relationship and that mentorship. So that’s sort of what I would have given my younger self as advice. And as something to take away for those who are listening in and wondering where and whether or not to even get started, my go to thing is: get started. The sooner, the better.
Jelly: That is awesome. I like that so much that it’s an effort, you know. Mentorship is like a relationship. It’s a two way street and you need to make an effort. I like what you said: create, build, and own it. It’s very easy to remember and it’s good career advice and good life advice, actually. So thank you for that. Awesome.
Sudharsana: Yeah I’m so glad that we could chat about mentorship and why it is important.
Richelle: I wanna thank you, Sudharshana, for sharing those success stories. And I really like how you are creating those full circle moments, not just for yourself but for others as well. So thank you very much.
Sudharsana: Thank you both so much for having me. It was a wonderful pleasure talking with the both of you. Thank you.
Jelly: Alright. Well, thank you everybody for joining us in this episode.
Richelle: You will find links and resources from today’s episode in the show notes.
Jelly: Follow, rate, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[Outro Voice]: Thank you for tuning in to the Mainframe Connect Podcast. This episode is part of the Mainframe Coven 10-part miniseries, sponsored by Phoenix Software International and Vicom Infinity, a Converge Company. Like what you heard? Subscribe to get every episode or watch us online at openmainframeproject.org. Until next time, this is the Mainframe Connect Podcast.
Links and Resources Mentioned in the Episode:
