In this episode of the I Am a Mainframer podcast, host Steven Dickens sits down with Riya Sahu, a passionate mainframe developer at Kyndryl, to explore her inspiring journey in the world of mainframe technology. Riya describes her career move from India to Hungary, the challenges of overcoming a language barrier, and how she embraced new opportunities. As she dives into the exciting projects she’s leading at Kyndryl, Riya highlights her work with IMS databases, discussing their critical role in the banking sector.
Throughout the conversation, Riya reflects on her personal growth, offering advice to her younger self to stay open-minded and grateful for new opportunities. She also shares her thoughts on the future of mainframe technology, including its continued relevance and cutting-edge applications, such as its role in space missions.
Riya’s story is a testament to the evolving perception of mainframe technology and the exciting possibilities it offers. Whether you’re a seasoned developer or new to the industry, this episode is filled with valuable insights and inspiration.
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Transcript:
Announcer:
This is the I Am a Mainframer podcast, brought to you by the Linux Foundation’s Open Mainframe Project. Episodes explore the careers of mainframe professionals and offer insights into the industry and technology. Now your host, Senior Analyst and Vice President of Sales and Business Development at Futurum Research, Steven Dickens.
Steven Dickens:
Hello and welcome to another episode of the I’m a Mainframer podcast. I’m your host, Steven Dickens. And today I’m joined by Riya from Kyndryl. Hey, Riya, welcome to the show.
Riya Sahu:
Thank you so much Steven for having me here. I’m grateful to be a part of this podcast.
Steven Dickens:
Well, you haven’t been on it yet, so maybe let’s hold judgment to see whether this is fun. But no, I mean, I think this came about from Petra Goude on your side at the Kyndryl side. She put something out there about some powerhouse women she had on her team who were growing the mainframe and really sort of investing in the skills. And then as happens, we end up with a guest and you are the guest. So maybe tell us a little bit about what you do for Kyndryl and then we’ll sort of go from there and try and unpack your story.
Riya Sahu:
Yeah, sure. So I have been working with Kyndryl since last two years, specifically with Kyndryl Hungary. So I work as a Senior Mainframe Developer. So mostly I work with COBOL, JCL, IMS, VSAM, CICS, all this stuff. So yeah, so it has been a great journey throughout with Kyndryl. I got appointed with Kyndryl back in 2022 October, and I moved from India to Hungary. So it’s a big move, turn of events. That was a big move for my professional and personal life as well. And up and coming here it was a bit challenging personally because of all the cultural differences and everything because as the culture changes the environment in the office becomes unfamiliar sometimes. So everything changed, but thankfully I could accommodate myself into this environment and I am working with wonderful colleagues. They have been very supportive of me with all the transition, movement, and everything. So yeah, it has been a great experience working as a developer with Kyndryl.
Steven Dickens:
So maybe if we can go back a little before your time in India, what were you doing in India before you joined Kyndryl?
Riya Sahu:
Yeah, sure. So we have to go a bit more to the past, during my college period. So I was a engineering student and I did my engineering on electrical and electronics, which completely doesn’t align with what I do today. So I used to deal with the control system, power system, diodes and all this stuff, motors, generators. And suddenly when I graduated I was looking for a job right then and I got an offer from a very famous MNC that is mostly known more in India. Back in that time you had to be specifically be working with codes. At that time it was all about how you look towards your career. And I took the opportunity, and I interviewed for it and I got the job. It was all about writing codes and being into an IT environment, infrastructure and all this. And I was totally unfamiliar with all these things. So initially when I joined I had not a lot of knowledge of coding, what kind of technologies we are doing in the present situation. And at that time I couldn’t choose what I wanted to work with. If I want to work with .NET or Java or mainframe. And the company sent me to a training with mainframe and COBOL and everything.
Steven Dickens:
So that’s how you got into the mindframe?
Riya Sahu:
Yes, of course. It was very sudden and I had no knowledge of what kind of technology I am into, how old is it, and how long it is going to sustain or anything. But my friends who used to work in computer science or application, they knew about something about these technologies and everything and they told me, Riya just don’t get into this.
Steven Dickens:
What was that first kind of experience getting onto a 3270 screen, coding in Java? What was that like?
Riya Sahu:
Yes, when I saw the screen initially I was like, what is all this black screen? And I was very skeptical about working in mainframe because my friend suggested that you mustn’t choose a particular technology which is going to be obsolete, in a few years. And I’m like, is my career at stake or what? But then as I got into mainframe, I got to know that the people who are not familiar with mainframe have a totally different mindset.
Steven Dickens:
This is the reason for this podcast. And this is the fascinating thing for me. I get to speak to people like you, coming in with this kind of perception, maybe whatever path takes them to the mainframe and they come onto the platform and they’re like, this is okay, this is good. I like this. And then we see a mind shift. So it is always fascinating for me to understand what that first exposure was, what people found when they got onto the green screen coming in via 3270 terminal emulator, probably, what that experience was like. So what’s been that kind of journey for you as you’ve kind of come through and got onto the mainframe? How have you found it?
Riya Sahu:
Initially? During my training periods, it was really tough for me personally because I was not familiar with writing code and everything. So when I started that it was challenging for me. I had to get some help and there is literally a classroom environment from where I got the training. So you have to be a student even if you have completed the graduation. And the teacher was very helpful. Initially I didn’t love, I wouldn’t say like, but I didn’t love the entire mainframe environment. But gradually I understood as I got into the coding and testing and everything, when the output would come out, it would give us such joy to understand that what I have made the joy of making something from scratch. So I gradually started to love it and I got into a project that was entirely dealing with development of COBOL programs from scratch or for enhancement or something.
So gradually I got more interested in that and after many, many years now I’m here. So I have built many applications for many companies, if we talk about the areas like finance, banking, health insurance, car insurance, and then manufacturing and many more. So I understood that mainframe is not only about mainframe platform itself, it accommodates many technologies now. I have seen a whole evolution of that platform. Initially I would have dealt only with COBOL, JCL and stuff, but now as we see in this era of APIs and everything, we can now connect to the outer world. So now as I thought that it would go obsolete, it came out that it’s far from that. And now I believe that the recent technologies, the modern ones which are taking place and people are going to, maybe they’ll get obsolete, but mainframe will stay. Mainframe will still be connecting via different kinds of API’s with new kinds of technologies to the world. And people will wonder how, and they’ll understand why it is called a dinosaur that is still existing in this modern world. And I’m kind of proud now to be a mainframe developer.
Steven Dickens:
I think if you look at the last maybe 20, 30 years of the mainframe, it’s been dead for all of that time and it’s regrown and re-energized itself. Containers now, connection to Kubernetes, AI, whatever the latest hot trend is, the mainframes managed to stay with it, stay current, stay engaged. So I think there’s a lot of what you’re saying that makes sense. I’ve got to go back and ask you a little bit about India to Hungary. That’s a huge move. Was that to come to Kyndryl, was that a move to sort of join Kyndryl in Hungary? Was that where the job is and was that how the move happened? That’s just fascinating for me. I moved from the UK to the US about 10 years ago, so I understand. I have four kids, I had to move everybody over here. So I understand that. And when people make that change and they go from one place to the other, I would argue that the UK to the US is less culturally different. There’s some crazy things about living in the US that I didn’t have to deal with in the UK, but India to Hungary, that’s a huge step. Tell me a little bit more about that.
Riya Sahu:
Yeah, sure. It’s also very fascinating for me to discuss that. I get very excited when anyone asks about it.
Steven Dickens:
I saw your face change
Riya Sahu:
I had been looking for a job change back in 2022 because during Covid period I could not really travel. So I wasn’t looking for jobs out of India. But as the Covid period ended in ’22, I thought of looking for jobs outside of India because I was very familiar with what the environment was in India, how we work in India. I have worked with several colleagues from several regions of India. So I kind of wanted to explore how people do work in Europe per se. So I started to look for jobs in Europe specifically, and I applied for Kyndryl and after many rounds of interviews, they accepted and they sent me a letter that said “Yeah you can come and join us” and we are going to sponsor your move and everything. That was a huge thing for me because it doesn’t really always happen. You don’t get a direct sponsorship from the company. Moving resources and talent can be sometimes very challenging for companies. But it happened for me, I guess the interview went really well that they could spend that kind of money for me.
Steven Dickens:
Something must have gone right in that interview Riya, that’s all I can say.
Riya Sahu:
And then I moved here, but it was kind of easier for me because I didn’t really have a family with husband and kids, I am single, and so it was easy for me to move. But in India, the culture is to stay with your parents. So it was kind of emotional turmoil to move. Initially I felt a bit responsible for leaving them there, but as I moved, I figured that my Hungarian colleagues are very polite and very giving in the sense that they asked me “What do you need?” Do you need any help for renting a new apartment and everything? So I got all kinds of help, not only within my work environment, but everywhere. They got to know me, they extended their hands for help. So that was a good thing. Another challenging part I would say as I moved was language. Because as in UK and USA as you moved, they both speak English. And in India also we can very much speak English.
I learned that not many people in Hungary speak English. It’s just limited within this office environment. And Hungarian language is very tough and fascinating of course, but it’s one of the toughest languages.
Steven Dickens:
So do you speak Hungarian, are you fluent?
Riya Sahu:
No, I tried, but it’s very different and difficult than any other languages. I know a few words, but I cannot speak a whole sentence. So in that part, I was very thankful to my colleagues that they never pushed me to this extent that you have to learn. They were more like, okay, it’s good to learn, but we’re here to speak English with you, so no worries, we’ll keep you going. So it’s kind of a heartwarming welcome for me to Hungary. And I also believe that I inspired quite a lot of young women and men as a whole to take a chance. Because a lot of people think that my world is limited, it’s not. You can always try to move forward and that’s how doors open.
Steven Dickens:
I’ve been doing the show now, I don’t know, four, five years maybe. I’ve had so many people on the show now. And one of the consistent trend lines through the show has been people who’ve built a career around the mainframe and being able to move to places, move to different companies, move to different parts of the world because of that mainframe community and the technology is so universally adopted and it’s so universally in demand that somebody that, I mean just unpack your story from Kyndryl. Kyndryl, were prepared to relocate you from India to Hungary, sponsor your move because they needed your skillset. That’s a fantastic story for this overall mainframe and how people can build a career. That’s the stories I love to understand and sort of unpack on the show. In the next few minutes let’s spend a bit of time talking about what you’re working on for Kyndryl, what type of projects.
Because I know Kyndryl, I was chatting to Petra, who was the person who connected us. I was chatting to Petra this week. You guys do fascinating work over at Kyndryl. Tell me a little bit about what you’re doing and what some of those projects you’re working on because I think people have this perception of the mainframe, and I think when I get to speak to people like you about some of the exciting things they’re doing, it often doesn’t sit with that perception. So I’d love to understand a little bit more about some of the things you’re working on.
Riya Sahu:
Yeah, sure. So currently I am working with one of the biggest banks in the Netherlands. And while working with them, I have worked on many projects so far in two years, but I would like to drag your attention to one project that is moving from IMS DB to Db2. So the bank has many IMS DB tables that they’re working with. So they really wanted to move to Db2 because with Db2 environment, it’s easier to connect to the outer world via API’s and z/OS connect and everything. So the bank was really interested to do that and we gave them our expertise, our resources to do that. I’m also a part of this, it takes huge analysis and understanding of mainframe environment as a whole and also how the system works on COBOL, IMS and everything. Sometimes the program can also have IMS and Db2 together. So all this knowledge is something you must have. So that’s the kind of work I’m doing right now.
Steven Dickens:
That must be the mission critical, absolute core of the bank. I’m assuming if it’s an IMS database, it’s account lookups, it’s right in the core of the bank. Is that a fair assumption?
Riya Sahu:
Yes, it is because there are certain IMS databases that cannot stay down for even a minute, and changing this huge part of a bank can be sometimes very risky. But of course we have shown certain kind of efficiency that the bank has agreed to let us do this. But at the same time we have to take care of certain things so that we don’t let that go down because one minute can cause hundreds of millions of losses of Euros. So that is the risk that we are taking, but at the same time it’s worth it because once it is done, we’ll be able to reduce millions of Euros of expenditure for the bank. So that is a lot of work, a huge responsibility. But yeah, we’re dealing with it and it’s going good because multiple databases have been deployed and it’s working good.
Steven Dickens:
This is a really fun part of my job. I get to contribute back to the community. I’m not a coder, I’m not working on Zowe. I’m not committing code into Galasa or any of the other projects under the Open Mainframe project. But what I do get to do is pull out fascinating stories like this. So literally for the first time, just noticed that we’re 20 minutes in through our recording here. I could keep having this conversation with you, it’s been fascinating, but I’ve got to kind of keep us and wrap us up. There’s always a couple of questions that I ask on the show and I’m fascinated to get your answers to sort of bring us home. First one is you get to go back to your younger self and give that person some advice. So you get to go back to 21-year-old Riya and give her some advice. What would that advice be?
Riya Sahu:
Actually, 21 is the exact age when I started working with mainframe and with this whole IT industry. So first and foremost, as I have already mentioned, I was very scared of getting into and very skeptical of getting into mainframe. So I would say to myself, it’s all right girl
Steven Dickens:
Calm down and relax.
Riya Sahu:
Yeah, calm down and relax. And God has his or her own way to put you through the path where you will get your success. So I think mainframe got me here and because there are resource crunches all over the world for mainframe, so people in mainframe get more chances to explore. So I will say be thankful. Little Riya, be thankful you are going to get to better places.
Steven Dickens:
That’s great advice. The second question I always ask and this one I’ll give you a bit of time to think about when I ask the question. You’ve got a great perspective on the mainframe, you’ve got a crystal ball, you’re looking into your crystal ball and you can see the future. Where do you see the future of the mainframe maybe five years from now?
Riya Sahu:
I see it not going obsolete. Of course that’s not even on the plate. Eight years back when I joined, my manager said that he was also skeptical of joining mainframe and his manager also comforted him saying that, no worries, it is not going to go anywhere. And five years from now, I am looking into it and I can see that it is now connecting to the outer world even more frequently. Like now, it can maybe connect to Python, Java, and everything. The platform can host many other technologies now, but in five more years it is going to get connected to AI and many more new technologies. Because if you can see now in last year, 2023, India sent a mission to the Moon. The South Pole of the Moon. Indians were the first to reach the South Pole of the Moon. And if you read about it, you would know that the mainframe is one of the platforms that they use for very fast calculations, for reliability because it’s a very critical job to be done. So you can imagine to send a certain spacecraft to the Moon, they’re using the mainframe platform.
Steven Dickens:
In the same way they did for the Apollo missions in the sixties. So we’ve seen a huge 50 year sort of plus technology cycle and the mainframe is still there. Riya, this has been a fascinating conversation. As I say, the first time I looked at the time on the recording was 20 minutes in, which is normally a good time for me. You’ve been watching the I’m a Mainframer podcast. I’m your host as always, Stephen Dickens. If you’d like the show and want to check out more episodes, click and subscribe and we’ll see you on the next episode.
Announcer:
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