In this engaging episode of the I Am a Mainframer podcast, Steven Dickens hosts a captivating conversation with Louisa Seers from IBM. As the product manager for the CICS portfolio and the technical steering committee chair for Galasa, an integral part of the Open Mainframe Project, Louisa shares insights into her journey at IBM. Beginning as an apprentice and blending work with education, she offers a unique perspective on her growth within the organization.
Louisa delves into her role as a product manager, shedding light on the challenges and responsibilities that come with it. She passionately advocates for the infusion of DevOps practices and open-source technologies into the mainframe platform, recognizing their pivotal role in shaping the industry’s future. Louisa underscores the significance of apprenticeships and mentorships in cultivating a diverse talent pool, echoing the need for a collaborative and inclusive environment.
Her insights not only provide a glimpse into the dynamic world of mainframe technology but also inspire a forward-looking perspective on its evolution.
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TRANSCRIPT
Announcer:
This is the I Am a Mainframer podcast, brought to you by the Linux Foundation’s Open Mainframe Project. Episodes explore the careers of mainframe professionals and offer insights into the industry and technology. Now your host, Senior Analyst and Vice President of Sales and Business Development at Futurum Research, Steven Dickens.
Steven Dickens:
Hello and welcome. My name is Steven Dickens and you’re joining us here on the I’m a Mainframer podcast and joined today by Louisa Seers from IBM. Hey Louisa, nice to see you.
Louisa Seers:
Hey, thanks so much for inviting me on, Steven.
Steven Dickens:
We were just saying off camera, it’s two or three months since we last spoke, but it’s great to have you on the show.
Louisa Seers:
Yeah, it was at GSE UK, right? It was my first time at the event. So meeting you is clearly one of the highlights, but I’m sure
Steven Dickens:
You’re too kind. You’re too kind. So let’s get the listeners and viewers orientated here. Tell us a little bit about what you do for IBM and then we’ll use that as a jumping off point.
Louisa Seers:
Sounds good. So I’m a product manager for the CICS portfolio. So I kind of look across the portfolio we have here that includes Galasa, which is part of the Open Mainframe Project. So I’m the technical steering committee chair for that. And I’m also a degree apprentice, so I’m just finishing my degree as part of IBM. So pick which one you want to start with, but there’s a,
Steven Dickens:
First off, we’ve got to say CICS for our American listeners is CICS.
Steven Dickens:
Got two Britts on here, so I call it CICS You call it CICS. They call it CICS.
Louisa Seers:
Yes. Apologies. I do get stuck up on that when I’m in conferences and things. They always say CICS and it does stump me slightly, but
Steven Dickens:
Yeah, and we call it Zed and they call it Z.
Louisa Seers:
We just like to make it difficult here in Britain.
Steven Dickens:
Yeah. So I know what a product manager is at IBM having been one in the past, but maybe just start there and explain and sort of unpack what that means.
Louisa Seers:
Okay. So I’ve been in product management about a year and a half, and I found it quite an interesting role because when I look at the academic research as part of my degree, they talk about being a mini CEO and that sort of looks at all of the aspects of a product. So for example, if we were launching a new pair of socks, you’d look at what customers would buy the socks, what price you’d put it at, where you would advertise it, how you would get it to market. So for example, would you put it in supermarkets or a clothing shop or online maybe you would look at, so if the socks cost one pound to make, would you be making profit if you sold them at one pound seventy given the shipping? But you are also looking at the internals of the kind of manufacturer in the company.
So you’re looking at development teams, you’re looking at legal, sales. It kind of covers everything. And in IBM, it’s very well structured because the way that IBM is set up has a lot of very good governance and structure that product managers can adhere to. So it is kind of a catchall and every product manager that you talk to will have a really different experience. No one taught me, no one taught me in my degree what a product manager was. They all kind of talk about business leaders and they talk about management, but product management encompasses so many different things that it’s hard to pin down exactly what that job entails.
Steven Dickens:
So I mean, you talked about your degree there. Maybe just sort of double click on that for us. Have you graduated and now you’re fully into the workplace, you’ve still got kind of one foot in both camps. How does that work?
Louisa Seers:
So it might be worth going back and giving a bit of context. So I’ve been in, IBM 10 years this year, which I still can’t believe, but I joined at 18 straight out of school and I joined as an apprentice. So for the American and overseas audience, what that really means is that instead of going to university and doing a traditional three year course where you do a dissertation at the end and you’d go to university classes, I was thrown straight into the workplace. So I had my qualifications at 18 and then I created a portfolio over about three years that would showcase my work. And I was a technical apprentice, which means I was doing coding, I was doing incident management all for customers, which was quite unusual in the UK at the time. They’ve exploded since, but I think they have them in the us but they’re quite, they’re not very popular of the way the US college system works.
So I spent a bit of time in the business, so about three or four years where I was just a normal employee. IBM hired me at 18 as an employee and kept me in different jobs. I moved around and then when I kind of got to a point where I was on the precipice of technical leadership or business leadership and at the time I was far more interested in seeing people succeed, seeing it was all about the training, the education, the way that it is, what happens when someone gets a really big success and you have helped them do that. There’s something about that that just really lights my fire. And so at the time they were just launching degree apprenticeships, which is again a UK centric program. They don’t have them elsewhere in the world, but you go to university and for me, I was a normal university student.
I did three and a half years and all my modules were exactly the same as a normal student. So I was in classes with business students that were color joined from school, and they were all bunched into one day. So I’d go to work four days a week and then I’d go to class one day a week, and that’s three and a half years ago now. And I’ve just graduated with my dissertation and I haven’t quite had the cap yet, but I’ve graduated from all my classes and everything and I’m just waiting for a charter management qualification, which is the kind of similar to when I was 18. You do a portfolio of all your evidence to say, oh, well I’ve led people, I’ve done meeting minutes, I’ve done communication. So yeah, there’s quite a history there, but that’s why I ended up doing a degree later in my career rather than doing it at 18.
Steven Dickens:
Fantastic. Well, I mean that’s a great journey and I mean I have the opportunity on the show to chat to some fascinating people. I get the chance to chat to general managers and SVPs, people who are right at the cold face who are technical and younger stage professionals who are just starting. I’ve had a high school kid who’s put a mainframe in his garage. So this is one of the reasons I love the show and it’s really fascinating. We, as you say, bumped into each other in November in GSE, that type of journey and that, I want to call it unusual. I think unusual is the right way to describe it. That unusual sort of path through the last 10 years at IBM. I think it’s really fascinating to share with the listeners because I think the default answer is, and I’ve got two daughters in college, so I kind of get it, you finish at 18, you go to college, maybe you get some work experience while you’re at college, internships or various things. And then you go into the workplace. I think what you just described there is a really different approach that’s probably fascinating for people who are watching the show who are thinking maybe you don’t want to go to college. So how would you compare and contrast, obviously a lot of your peer group went to college directly age 18. What’s your 10 year looking back?
Louisa Seers:
So one of the things that was really fascinating going back to university, I must’ve been 24 or 25, was that I was in a class with those 18 year olds. And so our class was all degree apprentices. So the kind of cohort that I followed through all of my classes with, and there were companies in there that were big name brands here in the UK the degree apprenticeship is adopted from quite a lot of organizations. And I was definitely different in that because I’d been in IBM I understood the business, I started off in consulting. So I started off in that nuts and bolts grind of how do you help the customers, how do you have very specific job roles in consulting. So when I was an instant manager, I could see how the government were using IBM technology to bring, it was benefits for people at the time when I did that.
So you got really good breadth of experience understanding how technology was delivered. I then worked in a different part of the business in software development around open source risk for a while. And so when I went to go and do the degree, I’d kind of already seen what IBM was like and we got given assignments. Every assignment I wrote, I had to write on IBM, which I can tell you I know IBM from an external perspective very well now because globalization, diversity, we did one on the HR, marketing and I approached the assignments very differently. So my marketing assignment’s a really good example. We were looking at consumer marketing and I had to do and apply lots of theory to IBM. So for example, they talk about the four P’s, it gets people place price and promotion. And so I had to go and find how IBM market to the businesses that they’re looking at buying from.
And instead of, a lot of the guys in my class would go and research online and that would be their only real form of research. Whereas I went and found, I think it was the chief marketing officer in the UK at the time, and I said to him, could you spend half an hour of your time just to talk me through what IBM does for their marketing? And so I definitely found different ways of applying what I was learning because I was older. So I had that kind of breadth of understanding and I think they call it inductive learning, maybe it’s not inductive, it’s the internal learning rather than for an external goal or to get money or to get the degree certificate. It was learning that I was intrinsic learning, that’s the word, which I think is definitely
Steven Dickens:
Continuing investing in learning rather than trying to just focus on the outcome.
Louisa Seers:
And I think at 18 I was like, oh, can I just finish this and can I just get it over with? Because the qualification was a means to an end, whereas doing it later on was much more of an experience. I’ve met a lot of people doing my degree and also shout out to GSE because they have a student track. So one of the things that led me to go into GSE was that I was a student, so I was able to go for free one of the things that they promote. And so actually then off the back of my degree, got four days of education on the mainframe, which I wouldn’t have got otherwise I didn’t have any sessions.
Steven Dickens:
So let’s maybe use that as a segueway then. So you are in IBM, it sounds like you’re in consulting, you’re doing a bunch of other things, you’re on this track. Tell me about how you kind of dropped into the mainframe that sort of, I mean obviously we’re dealing with a perception that the mainframe is hard for younger professionals to get into. This is an industry narrative that there’s a skills gap and that younger people can’t learn this platform. From all of my experience and chatting to lots of younger, early stage professionals on this podcast, I don’t subscribe to that view, but I think it’d be really good to sort of double click on how you found the platform, those first early steps. So if you can maybe sort of expand on that, that’d be great.
Louisa Seers:
Yeah, so I’m in IBM Hursley, so it’s worth, you can’t see it from my background, but CICS is developed here and also MQ is developed here. So I had knowledge and awareness that the mainframe existed. I knew these products existed and they were very successful and I kind of knew that my customers in consulting were using the product, but I didn’t really understand much about it. So when I decided to become a product manager, CICS was the most logical place given geographical proximity really. And it was difficult first to get orientated. I was very fortunate that my first products were add-ons to CICS. So I find CICS quite challenging to understand because I understand it from a very 10,000 foot view perspective. But as soon as I started drilling into resources and understanding how you would deploy CICS regions, that all got quite messy in my head, especially in the first six months.
But because my products were, they were analyzing performance of CICS, they were looking at the disaster recovery, they were looking at the way to analyze how transactions run through CICS. I sort of had an advantage where instead of focusing on how CICS is created and how the mainframe works from a technical perspective, I could look at how customers were using and monitoring CICS, which actually was an advantage because I needed the level of knowledge to understand what SMF records were and what transaction events were but I didn’t need to know the inner working.
Steven Dickens:
You don’t have to get under the hood of CICS and understand how it’s doing it. If you are analyzing, was it CICS transaction analyzer? So if you’re doing CICS transaction analyzer, you need to understand that piece. You don’t need to understand how CICS works.
Louisa Seers:
Exactly. And actually, so I kind of had a crash course in the first six months of CICS and then my manager came to me and said, we’ve got this great project that we need to get into the Linux Foundation. And I went, great. He knew I’d had a bit of a background in open source, so I sort of understood how it was put together and how open source worked. But I didn’t know anything about the Open Mainframe Project. So that second six months in my role was okay, I have a fundamental understanding of what a mainframe is. And the fact there were quite a lot of, there’s not of terminology that I learned in a very short space of time. So that then when I went and started looking at the Open Mainframe Project, it wasn’t a really scary thing that I’d never heard of before. Actually the mission was all about going outside into the mainframe and that was exactly where I was coming from. So I looked at it and I was like, yeah, that’s exactly what I’m looking for. And suddenly I’d gotten in much in testing rather than in the really nuts and bolts of the operating system or RACF. I mean people still talk to me about RACF and I understand the concept of it, but I couldn’t talk to the depth that some of your other guests probably could.
Steven Dickens:
Yeah, we’ve had Mark Wilson on the show in the past, and I think there’s many people who can talk to Mark when he gets technical. So I mean that’s fascinating. The Open Mainframe Project’s obviously dear to my heart, that was my sort of probably career highlight alongside launching LinuxONE was bootstrapping and getting the Open Mainframe Project set up back in 2014 and 2015. And the reason I still do this show, so maybe let’s use that as a jumping off point to then talk about what you’re doing with the OMP, what your project is and maybe just give us an overview of them. We’ll talk about that for a couple of minutes.
Louisa Seers:
So I’ll start with what it is. So Galasa is a newly launched open mainframe project. It’s an integration test framework. So it looks at the way that applications knit together in order, for example, a mortgage application to work. If you were testing a mortgage application, it wouldn’t just be testing Db2 or CICS. You might have a web front end, you might have a call out to AWS, you might have a call out to MQ or z/OS Connect. And so Galasa is able to test that end-to-end view. So it goes all the way from the web interface at the front end all the way to the back end to validate whether what that test is saying is true. And I think the benefit of that is that testing is one of those things that people don’t want to invest in, but the way to automate it and the way that DevOps pipelines and CICS pipelines are coming in, it makes it kind of naturally fits into all of the different elements of developing mainframe applications.
So it actually started quite a long time before me, I think three years before me, and it came from a set of customers in, they came to the CICS team and said, you do these really interesting complex testing and development cycles for CICS. How do you do that? We want to do what you are doing. And the CICS team decided to create the Galasa framework, which has turned into the open source project. So my role in that is to chair the meetings for the technical steering committee. So that’s the team that decide the roadmap, the objectives for the project publicity. We make decisions as to what goes in the open source project and what doesn’t, and and we have quite a vibrant team of developers that are kind of working on the Galasa project. So that’s my, there’s probably more to the story, but
Steven Dickens:
So just from a community point of view, I mean obviously it looks like IBM donated the code. What’s been the community adoption so far has that really picked up and now it’s a more diverse developer base and committer base than just IBMers?
Louisa Seers:
So it’s been slow. So we officially released the press release to say that we were public in September. So we’re very new. It took us about nine months to get through the legal paperwork and the technical advisory committee in the Open Mainframe Project. So it did take quite a number of months to get to the point of being officially open. We started with four companies, so we started with IBM, Broadcom, Rabobank, and Macro 4 on the technical steering committee. So they’re, as I said, the ones that are deciding the roadmap. And over the next six months, my hope is that the developer base will become more diverse. I think it’s is taken the company some time to get their head around the code. How we’re building the infrastructure for Galasa is all moving into the open. So all of that stuff takes time to be put into place in the Open Mainframe Project rather than inside IBM.
So it is been a bit of a slow going, but we do have quite a lot of diverse contributors, whether that’s development or in setting the direction of the roadmap. I’ve been having some discussion with, I had someone reach out to me last week that was a DevOps engineer. He knew nothing about the mainframe because Galasa is developed in Java and the connection into the mainframe is through you create something called a manager that mimics the logic of the program that you are trying to communicate with. So 3270 manager, you write the, so for example, if you want to type PF one enter, you write that in the test case and you let the 3270 manager do all the work to create that. So it doesn’t actually need mainframe experience to develop on. And so I had a DevOps engineer reach out to me with no mainframe experience and he said, I’ve seen your project, it looks great. Can I come and join? And I think it’s a really interesting example of where you’ve got a really exciting open source project within mainframe that doesn’t require people with that experience, but we obviously need that balance. A hundred percent wants to grow that mainframe footprint and the way that Galasa can interact with those programs.
Steven Dickens:
Well, I mean I wind back now, what are we almost seven years since we started the idea of the Open Mainframe Project. And I think that’s a perfect example of one of original scenarios that we envisioned getting that open source community, those people, the sort of archetypal or maybe sort of cliched view of the developer with their hoodie sitting in their coding and bashing away in their dorm room. How do we give them a path to interact with the mainframe? Getting onto a mainframe is not an easy thing to do unless you’re part of the community. And this way you’ve got to almost work for an employer who’s got access to get on. But if we can provide pathways like the one you just described, I think that was the original vision and I think it’s fantastic to kind of hear that that vision is coming to reality.
Louisa Seers:
And you can see through, I mean everyone talks about Zowe, it’s the classic, a mainframe project starter project. But that’s another example of where you are bringing the outside in, you are bringing the VS Code outlook, which is quite familiar to people into the world of mainframe that allows that communication. When I talk to some customers about the way that they are trying to modernize their mainframe applications and they’re able to bring developers in from the distributed side and say, look, you can use VS Code, you can do all of this interesting stuff with it. It brings that level of familiarity across and parity across the platforms that I think will help alleviate some of the challenges that we’ve had. And you don’t have to look at a 3070 in order to develop or change the application or make a difference to the way that the mainframe environment is being looked at.
Steven Dickens:
And I think that’s hugely powerful. I mean, I think the underlying platform is going to be what the underlying platform’s going to be and there’s going to be some worshiping of different gods and speaking in different tongues. But I think at those sort of interaction layers and abstraction layers, if we can make that look more normal in inverted, but if you can make it more easy for people to interact with who don’t have deep mainframe skills, I think that’s going to be transformational for the platform.
Louisa Seers:
I completely agree. I mean, I was sat in GSE on, I was kind of flicking through the agenda and I saw an open telemetry talk and the guy kind of stood up, I can’t remember where he was from, but he gave the whole spiel about open telemetry, how you can look at traces through applications, how you can stitch distributed environments together. And obviously we were at a mainframe conference, so the questions in the audience were, well, what does this mean for the mainframe? And I know that the Open Mainframe Project are spinning up some open telemetry work as well. There’s a lot of work
Steven Dickens:
I may or may not have had a part in joining the OTel community to the OMP. So yeah,
Louisa Seers:
It’s good.
Steven Dickens:
I’m guilty. I mean, the fantastic part of it, I’ll tell you the story, the fantastic part of my job is I get to chat to some interesting people. So one of the people I chat to on a regular basis is the team at Splunk. They put me on a call to talk about OTel, and the guy who runs the OTel steering committee was the guy doing the pitch. So I’m there listening to what Splunk is doing from an OTel perspective, just generally getting their product vision. And I pinged him in the chat. I’m like, can you hang on for two minutes? At the end I’m like, I’ve got a community that really wants to chat to you. So yes, I’m guilty for connecting the OTel community to the Open Mainframe project.
Louisa Seers:
But I lov e it because it, again, parity. I mean, Ansible is another example that we can call upon where we’re bringing open source technology that is used across the distributed world and we’re bringing it in to give it some love and say, you know what? We can do some of these things to, and don’t get me wrong, I really understand the challenges that we have using open source and customers have getting it into their environments. I know there’s a lot of restriction around that. And actually sometimes it’s the that’s
Steven Dickens:
Changing though. I think Zowe’s broken that seal. I mean hope.
When we started Open Mainframe Project, it was mainly a Linux thought back then. And then Zowe came along and put it, if you’d have said that there’s open source projects for z/OS, even 10 years ago people would’ve just laughed at you. But now it’s an accepted part of the mainframe community. So I think that transformations been, it’s been interesting to see the community of z/OS stalwarts and diehards take on board open source.
Louisa Seers:
And as someone that has come on relatively recently and really immersed, I’ve really immersed myself in the way that the Open Mainframe project work and how IBM and the mainframe, the history of it and the technology behind it. I’m really excited by what’s happening. I’m passionate about helping people, helping students, helping people that kind of know some bits but don’t know others. So for example, going to the GSE conference committee planning event last week we were in a room where we were all talking about all of the different areas that are covered at GSE. You’ve got large systems, you’ve got the app dev tracks, you’ve got 101, 102. And I was talking to a RACF developer and immediately we sat down and we started talking about, I said, I was there because open source is becoming more prevalent and we wanted to talk about it.
And she said, oh, but Zowe doesn’t do RACF. And one of the Zowe developers was sat next to me and he goes, no, no, it does, but it is being developed all the time and maybe I should sit down with you and talk about it. And it was that fusion of worlds where RACF developers look at their particular security things and then the CICS system programmers look at their thing and actually that cross-contamination of teams, especially when they’re siloed. And I know that they can be in some organizations, bringing that together with common tools and processes really makes a difference to that.
Steven Dickens:
So Louisa, I’ve just looked at the clock. We could go on for hours and we hit a of interesting topics, but I’ve got to sort of put my hosts hat on and sort of start to bring us home here. So there’s a couple of questions I always ask on the show. You’ve got a crystal ball, you’ve got the ability and your perspective’s going to be fascinating here. You’ve got a crystal ball, you’ve got the chance to look and see where the mainframe’s going to be five years from now. What does that look like?
Louisa Seers:
That’s a really hard question, Steven.
Steven Dickens:
I know you’ve watched few episodes of the show you’ve heard of. I asked that question of everybody. So you knew it was coming.
Louisa Seers:
I know, I know. But I think I am so new to the platform.
Steven Dickens:
Talk about it from an open source perspective. I think we’ve got,
Louisa Seers:
Okay, so I’d like like to see in five years that we can bring the way that DevOps and DevOps is a really catch all term, the culture, the processes, and the technology. If we can bring those in a way that allows more agile development, more reliable releases, more parity across application developers, assistant programmers, I think that’s going to be transformational. And we’re kind of on the precipice of that at the moment. I think there’s a lot of buzz and noise around how automated development and automated infrastructure as code is kind of coming, but I don’t think we’re quite over the hill of trying to bring that cultural shift and that cultural change. So given that 10 years ago you said that no one would think open source would be on z/OS, I think DevOps will be very similar in five or 10 years time.
People will look back and think, why did we not automate this sooner? And I think that’s the second thing I would say is that as a young student, I would like to think there would be more apprenticeships, mentorships, internships, things to break down the barrier of bringing people at any stage of life, you can be an apprentice at 50. So if you can open the barrier of using the technology from any walk of life, I think that will also start to shift. Notice that you don’t have to be 18 or just out of school or just out of college in order to learn this stuff. You can be at any age.
Steven Dickens:
Yeah, I think that’s, well, that’s a vision for the next five years,
Louisa Seers:
My vision anyway.
Steven Dickens:
The other question I ask, and I normally ask it, what would you say to your 21-year-old self coming out of college, but that’s not appropriate here. What would you say to your 18-year-old self starting at your career at IBM, if you had the opportunity to go back and impart some advice?
Louisa Seers:
So something that I didn’t know existed was things like virtual conferences. So I talk about GSE lot, but it is been around a lot. GSE have a virtual conference coming up in April. That is a ridiculous amount of hours of education for people that is accessible and you can be at home on your laptop. I think that’s something that I didn’t really appreciate when I was 18. I kind of was so daunted by the world of work that I didn’t realize that there were people out there. There’s a one-on-one student track that’s designed specifically for 18 to 25 year olds that have no idea what they’re doing. And I think would’ve learned a lot of sessions on there that’s like career education or how to get your first job or how to put a job application in. And I think that’s something I didn’t do at 18, I didn’t really look around and no one really guided me.
My school didn’t tell me, oh, there are industry conferences you could go to as a school child. I really didn’t know. So I think that’s the first thing. I think the second thing is that, and this is really hard for me to say because I do, the choices that you make are, they are really important, but probably not as important looking back as you think they’re going to be. I made the decision to go to IBM and not pursue a sound engineering degree. And actually IBM was a great option for me. And so I would say that there’s no wrong answer in what you choose to do. It’s just a case of getting stuck in. And if I can say a third thing, it would be, if you want more experience, open source is the place to be. Go meet people like me ping me or other technical steering committee members. You can find them on GitHub. They’ll often have their ID or their email that you can reach out to them with and you can join a community without having any experience and they’ll teach you.
Steven Dickens:
It’s interesting you mentioned that being part of an open source community, the sort of default view is you’ve got to be a coder, you’ve got to be committing code. I’ve started an open source project and been involved in an open source project, what is it now? Seven years. Never committed a line of code and never will. I was the original chairman of the project. I was then on the chair of the marketing committee and I do this podcast and I’m a board advisor. None of that has involved me committing one line of code, but I contribute to the community in a different way. So I think it’s really fascinating that people think there’s this barrier. You’ve got to be some expert coder to be involved in the community. I think approach the committee members, approach the community and say, how can I help? If that’s standing on a booth, giving out brochures at an open source conference, they’ll take that help.
Louisa Seers:
Could be updating the website maybe as well.
Steven Dickens:
Yeah, I mean, if you’ve got website skills or you’re a marketing person, but you’re passionate about that piece of technology, get involved. Louisa, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Louisa Seers:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a real pleasure. Thank you.
Steven Dickens:
So you’ve been listening to it and watching another episode of the I’m a Mainframer podcast, brought to you by the Linux Foundation’s Open Mainframe Project. Please click and subscribe and do all those things to help with the algorithm and we’ll see you next time. Thank you very much for watching.
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