In this episode of the I Am a Mainframer podcast, host Steven Dickens interviews Darren Surch, CEO of Interskill Learning, the largest mainframe training provider in the world.
Surch discusses his background in mainframe training and the evolution of Interskill over the past 30 years. He highlights the impact of the IBM digital badge program on training delivery and the increased engagement and motivation it brings to learners. Surch also discusses the importance of networking, mentoring, and community involvement in the mainframe industry.
He predicts that AI will play a significant role in education and training, making processes more efficient, but emphasizes the continued need for experienced mainframers to provide valuable insights and real-world examples. Surch believes that the mainframe will remain at the center of data management and security, with companies leveraging AI to analyze decades of data for valuable insights and a competitive edge.
Tune in to this insightful and inspiring episode!
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Transcript:
Announcer:
This is the I Am a Mainframer podcast, brought to you by the Linux Foundation’s Open Mainframe Project. Episodes explore the careers of mainframe professionals and offer insights into the industry and technology. Now your host, Senior Analyst and Vice President of Sales and Business Development at Futurum Research, Steven Dickens.
Steven Dickens:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the I’m a Mainframer podcast, brought to you by the Open Mainframe Project from the Linux Foundation. I’m your host, Steven Dickens, and I’m really excited about today’s episode. A guy I’ve known for a while. Don’t know why it’s taken years for us to get you on the show. Darren, welcome to the show.
Darren Surch:
Good day, Steven, how are you? Thanks for the invite. I’m really looking forward to the conversation mate.
Steven Dickens:
So as I say, we’ve known each other for years. I don’t know why it’s taken so long to get you on the show, but I don’t do the scheduling. Before we get started, let’s get you to introduce yourself to the listeners and the viewers here.
Darren Surch:
Very cool. Well, I’m Darren Surch, CEO of Interskill Learning, the biggest mainframe training provider in the world. I’m also, luckily enough, a lifetime IBM Champion for services to the industry. One of only two that IBM’s ever awarded that for IBM Z and yeah, 30 year veteran of mainframe workforce training. I’m an Aussie so you can hear that we may need subtitles later for a Brit and Aussie on the same call. We’ll try
Steven Dickens:
We’ll try not to talk about rugby and the Queen or the King, I should say
Darren Surch:
I’m an Aussie, but I’ve been here in the US for coming up 30 years, so based in Charleston, beautiful Charleston, South Carolina at the moment.
Steven Dickens:
So let’s go there. First Interskill. I’ve seen you at SHARE for I don’t know how many years now and always stop by and have a chat at the booth. We’ve spoken in the GSE event in the UK as well, but just ground the listeners and the viewers in Interskill what you do and we’ll use that as a jumping off point and then we’ll get into a little bit more around you in those 30 years in the industry.
Darren Surch:
Sure, yeah, I suppose originally I was a Hydrographer, so I was a water resources scientist. That’s my qualifications way back in the day. But this is getting back a little bit, but was drinking beer at The Oktoberfest in Munich in ’89 and happened to be sitting at a table with a bunch of mainframe programmers from from England and Germany and South Africa and America and so forth, and they convinced me over a few beers that mainframe computing was the career that I should be in. So when I went back to Australia, I went to a college that was specializing in mainframe programming and operations and did a 12 month course in COBOL and CICS programming and was going to head out into the industry, trained up as a CICS and COBOL programmer, but the head of the college pulled me aside and said, listen, we’re experimenting with this new thing called computer-based training.
Remember this is before the internet. This is 1990. Computer-based training, which is going to be a new way because the mainframe industry is classroom, classroom and classroom since ’64 when System 360 came out. So classroom training instructor led was the only way it was done. So this was pretty groundbreaking stuff and Ray Menzies was this gentleman’s name. So we started developing this mainframe e-learning in Australia and we had MVS, ISPF, JES2, CICS and COBOL probably. So there was only a few courses, but it really took off from the mainframe shops in Australia, which there were probably somewhere near a hundred back in those days, really liked it. And then a couple of banks in the UK caught wind of it and said, we really liked this. So we went over and set up an office in the UK in Manchester and then the US companies started saying, Hey, we like this digital learning for mainframe. We’ve got to train up our people. Funnily enough, even back in 1990, the industry was going, oh, mainframe skills crisis. The mainframers are retiring. We’ve got
Steven Dickens:
34 years later into the conversation.
Darren Surch:
That’s why when people get all hysterical about it these days saying, oh, where are we going to find the next generation of mainframes? I quietly pat ’em on the shoulder and say, it’s okay, we’ve been worried about this. Yeah, we’ve always done it. We’ve always had enough mainframers coming through to run the systems and so forth, so don’t worry about it too much. So anyway, Interskill sort of expanded out, especially in the US obviously, which is very mainframe centric and built up to where we are today 30 years later. We delivered just over a million hours of mainframe training last year globally.
Steven Dickens:
So as I say, I’ve known you guys for years and know the predominant position you got in the market. I never knew the genesis story. People always ask me, why do you do this podcast for the I’m a Mainframer. I’m like, because I get to chat to a lot of people I know about how they got started and find it fascinating. So pre-internet computer based learning and then you wind forward to where we are today. Maybe just give me that arc of how you’ve seen the industry change, how Interskill has changed over that time.
Darren Surch:
Yeah, goodness. When we first started, I used to go to a new client with a briefcase back in the day when it was cool to carry a briefcase in a double breasted suit.
Steven Dickens:
We’ve all been there,
Darren Surch:
We’re similar vintage. So yeah, we’d go with big boxes of floppy discs and I’d sit in a training room at a corporate mainframe organization and start loading in these floppy discs one after another into a PS/2 an IBM PS/2 personal computer and just set up individual PC’s for training. But obviously when the internet hit computer-based training became e-learning and that’s when it really moved into its own space. The scalability of it is incredible. Once you’ve got this big resource of mainframe training, instantly deliverable year round, that sort of stuff. On demand and year round, the scalability means you can just open it up to anybody and everybody with no extra effort. So yeah, we used to do that back in the day the internet was one big boost, which massively increased our company and the next one was, well, Y2K was an interesting ripple in the industry, but it didn’t sort of change training that much, although it was probably a lot more COBOL training done at that time.
But I suppose the next big jump for us was eight years ago. Funnily enough, we were doing 260,000 hours of mainframe training a year, which we thought we were God’s gift to mainframe educators doing that much training. IBM came out with the IBM digital badge program and we looked at it and said, holy cow, this is an absolute game changer. So we wrapped our entire product around the digital badges and so when people complete curricular of Interskill training IBM awards, because IBM looks at it and says, okay, this is a skills benchmark for this technical topic, foundational and or intermediate and or advanced levels, and IBM awards badges for this stuff.
Steven Dickens:
So basically you’re the provider behind the scenes for those IBM badges.
Darren Surch:
We provide the training. Now all of the global training partners, because about a decade ago IBM outsourced its training, main training function to the GTP’s, but classroom training is not quite so easy to do badges and hasn’t been really embraced that much by the ILT companies. Interskill is really the only comprehensive curriculum of e-learning of digital training for mainframe, but it’s got to a point so much that we did some stats last year, 80% of all IBM digital badges issued for training, specifically mainframe training for Interskill courseware, 80%. Over eight years, that’s jumped our delivery of training from 260,000 to a million last year of training delivered and it’s because, thank you LinkedIn. People that normally would start a bit of training because their boss told ’em they had to do some training and they’d maybe finish it or maybe not or maybe find some time to get round to it, when there’s a badge, just basic human nature, when there’s a badge at the end of it, when there’s a credential, you’ll make the time to do the training, to finish the training, to get the badge, to put it up on LinkedIn and have all your colleagues and friends tell you, Hey, well done. Good job. That all feels good
Steven Dickens:
The gamification of it.
Darren Surch:
Gamification it is, but it drives training and for companies getting people to do the training has been half the battle. Mainframe organizations typically put a lot of training on, but getting your people to actually take the time to do the training is the other half of the battle, and that’s what the badging does. So it massively increases the training ROI for corporations. It takes that headache from, we have conversations with mainframe managers and say, let’s roll out this comprehensive training so that we can lift up –high tide raises or boats. I know I’ve heard you use that saying before, lift up the whole workforce with all of these skills, become incredibly versatile and multi-skilled and so forth, and you see them, the mainframe managers just gritting their teeth thinking, oh my god, I’m busy as it is. How am I going to find the time to make my people do all this training and structure it and organize it? But it’s not that. That’s the other thing that Interskill does. We have teams of people all included in the license that just come in and virtually but manage it and run reports for our clients and all this sort of stuff, but the badges drive the training. I think IBM did a study something like 260% increase of people just actively going and finding training, actively going and sourcing training and doing it and so forth just to earn the badge.
Steven Dickens:
It’s crazy that kind loop for people to, you would think we all see it every day, we all go into LinkedIn and we all see the post and
Darren Surch:
IBM badges everywhere.
Steven Dickens:
Everybody gets a like or a comment or gives a thumbs up, but you wouldn’t have thought it would’ve had a 260% increase just putting the ability to link a badge to LinkedIn and say, Hey, I got this.
Darren Surch:
I got to get you that study. There’s something like a 690% increase I think in the final test results and so forth at the end. Again, that same human nature, people will go through a course and go, oh, my boss has told me I’ve got to do this course, so I’m going to go through it just to get to the end of it. Yeah, I’ve done it. Okay, boss, I’ve done it. But if people know there’s a test at the end and they really want to earn the badge, not just gamification, I mean it’s benchmarking your skills, it’s showing you know your stuff, it’s showing that as a mainframer you are skilled across all these areas, not just, Hey, I know JCL, well, can you just spell it or do you actually know how to code it?
Steven Dickens:
I’m in the know what it means category.
Darren Surch:
Yeah. Anyway, the badge program has been a real game changer. There’s a new level of badges now called IBM professional certificates, which are the closest thing IBM has to certification in the mainframe space, and those are like 60, 70, 80 hour tracks of training that you’ll complete over an extended period of time and then earn this professional certificate, which are job role based. So level one, level two, level three for a mainframe operator or a mainframe system programmer or a mainframe application programmer or mainframe security administrator. These are certifications in that they show you have benchmarked your skill levels for that job role so that an organization knows, okay, of all my people working in this job role, they all know what they’re doing. There’s no massive skills gaps that are going to cause a crash or inefficiencies or whatever that benchmarks that for the organization as well, as well as on an individual level. Anyway, I’m getting out into the weeds. Thank you for listening.
Steven Dickens:
As I say, it’s always fascinating for me, I get to interview people I know most often, but we get chance to double click. I mean, we’re on the Linux Foundation’s podcast here. Obviously open mainframe projects brought things to market like Zowe. Has that been something else that’s kind of driven another wave of newer, fresher, different people coming in and needing to get trained? I mean, I think there’s the kind of general, we’ve talked about it and joked about it, the kind of general perception that there’s an aging to the workforce and COBOL developers are going. I don’t subscribe to that narrative and we’ve got data. We just did some research that kind of says that’s not the case, and that the biggest takeaway from the research was that it’s no harder to find mainframe skills than it is to find AI or security skills. So we’re struggling to find lots of skills, but have you seen open source be yet another kind of wave that’s come across over the top of everything else?
Darren Surch:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, traditionally people would go back in the day, people would go to university and learn, way back they’d learn mainframe, they’d learn to code COBOL and so on and so forth. These days, there’s only a few universities that still do that sort of training, but universities are still churning out people that are skilled programmers, maybe not in the mainframe languages or some of the mainframe languages because C is fine and Java’s fine and you know what I mean. So there’s people coming out of university that are doing that and it’s only a small extra step to train them in a mainframe language or people use Zowe and VS Code and they can work on a mainframe using GUI interfaces the same way as they’ve always learned. So polyglot programmers just have to learn extra languages. They have to understand, a big part of it is, I suppose, understanding the mainframe environment. That’s part of the training that these people, even the people that are familiar with some of these open source products, they still need to understand the mainframe environment so they know what they’re working in.
Steven Dickens:
Yeah, I mean it was interesting. On the last podcast I recorded, we had a lady on who’d come through and she sort of COBOL developer was sort of the early part of her career. Fascinating to me, and it always is, it just goes completely against what we get told by the mainstream IT press that it’s a dead language. It’s really hard to learn. There’s a huge barrier and I just look at this and maybe I live in a multilingual household with my daughter studying Japanese and my wife being from South America and all my kids speaking fluent Spanish, I just have subscribed to it’s just a different language.
Darren Surch:
Well said.
Steven Dickens:
Learning French or German or Spanish maybe Japanese is a bit different from what I see from my daughter, but learning these languages, it’s a construct. It’s a grammar structure. You’ve got to learn particular words, you’ve got to learn phrases. The same task is there if you’d want to do something in French or you want to do something in German and the same is there if you want to do something in COBOL or you want to do something in Java, I don’t think it’s inherently more difficult or one language is better or worse than another.
Darren Surch:
Polyglot programmers need to know multiple languages and to use the best language for whatever the work is that they’re doing.
Steven Dickens:
Absolutely, absolutely. I think, and the conversation I was having with this sort of developer was I think if I was going to be, and I hold this opinion that if you were going to come out of college and go and look for a career, why would you fight hundreds of thousands of people for a Java programming job when you can fight tens of people for a COBOL job? Arguably better companies to work for.
Darren Surch:
And better salaries as well. There are studies that show, mainframe personnel get paid more. Just also something that I’ve brought up on a number of other panels and conversations and so forth, If you are working in distributed systems as a IT systems or programming or whatever, like you said, there’s tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of other people and if you want to start moving up into the middle management and get promotions and get increased responsibility and really give you a career a boost, you are waiting on that many people to leave or retire or you’ve got to be better than them. In the mainframe space, people talk about senior mainframers as retiring as a downside, which I suppose it is. If knowledge transfer needs to happen, coaching and mentoring needs to happen, the knowledge needs to get out of these senior mainframers heads and across to the next generation, which is part of the conversation that goes on across the mainframe industry.
Steven Dickens:
But on that point, just I’ll cut in. The mainframe community is so willing to spend time.
Darren Surch:
Oh I know.
Steven Dickens:
You see people at SHARE and they’re, dragging a couple of students around with them and they’re spending time with them and taking ’em out for dinner and they’re doing everything. They’re going way beyond. I don’t see that community aspect at any other tech conference.
Darren Surch:
No, never seen it before.
Steven Dickens:
I go to many conferences a year and I never see that at any other conference.
Darren Surch:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Steven Dickens:
So let’s get a little, tell me a little bit more about, you’ve done a great job of talking about Interskill, anybody can tell you are the CEO. Let’s talk a little bit about you now a little bit more. Tell me a little bit around that sort of arc. You’re in Australia, you’re doing this computer-based learning. How do you end up in Charleston, South Carolina? A lovely part of the world that it is. And that IBM champion arc, maybe let’s spend a few minutes there.
Darren Surch:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, as I was saying at the start, the US is sort of the hub of a lot of mainframe computing. So for a training company, this is where we would end up. We still have offices over in the UK and the courses are all developed in Australia. But for me, I came over here, I was in Los Angeles or Orange County for the first four years. I was in the US and then went to Dallas for about 10 years because EDS was our biggest client at the time. So we were there looking after them, but all of our US team are virtual now. We’ve got offices in Australia for the development, but the rest of our team, because it’s e-learning, it’s a digital product, so we’re all virtual. So funnily enough, after 10 years in Dallas, I said to my wife, Canadian wife, where do we want to live? We loved Dallas. We loved Dallas for 10 years, but it’s getting a bit too hot. Let’s pick somewhere else. So we ended up picking Charleston.
Steven Dickens:
Nice part of the world.
Darren Surch:
That’s how I ended up here. The IBM champion program, Misty Decker, who’s I think been a guest on one of your shows, she
Steven Dickens:
She lives here in the same town as me. There we go,
Darren Surch:
And Christy Schroeder. So these two ladies,
Steven Dickens:
I’ll tell you a story about Christy. Christy is one of the nicest humans. I literally moved to the US 10 years ago this week, and I met Christy at an event. Get chatting, and she needed a car to go and see some friends that evening. I was an IBMer having rented a car, and at that point you could give your car to any other IBMer and they could drive it. They had some deal with Hertz. So I lent her the car keys, she’d borrowed the car, put it back in the same parking spot. So I got to know Christy. A couple of months later I’m moving to the US. Because I moved here before my family moved here, come and stay with us for a couple of weeks. I ended up staying for two months with Christy. Fantastic lady, one of the best humans ever. So I always tell that story whenever I hear her name, she goes down in my book as one of the best people out there for sure. So accommodating and a lovely human.
Darren Surch:
Yeah, so they were mates of mine at one of the SHARE conferences that we were at. I was chatting to them and they said, you know what? Because I speak at conferences and I don’t speak about Interskill, I speak about workforce training and lifting up the industry and all the aspects of training effectively and so forth. So it’s trying to be more thought leadership and helping out the industry conversations, and we’re always getting on calls with universities and trying to get them interested in mainframe and so forth because mainframe is all Interskill does. It’s absolutely a niche provider. We don’t do training on anything else. I mean, all of our personnel are mainframers or ex mainframers or their parents were mainframers. So this is our community, and I suppose I’ve always given back growing up in the bush, I grew up in a little town in Australia, population 11 up in the mountains, and when you grow up in the bush, everybody helps everybody.
So I sort of adopt the mainframe industry as my family and try and help out. So anyway, Christy and Misty said, there’s this thing called the IBM Champion program and you’re doing all this stuff already, so we really should get you connected. So that was the genesis of that, and that’s an amazing program. If anyone listening is involved in the, well, I mean it’s right across all of IBM’s products. So the IBM champion programs for all of it, but on the mainframe space, if you are a part of things, if you’re speaking, if you’re coaching and mentoring, if you’re contributing to the industry, if you really feel part of this family and part of this community, the IBM Champion program is amazing. It amplifies your voice. It gives you opportunities to speak and get involved in things and amplifies that. And you know what, The Open Mainframe project does a brilliant job with their ambassadors as well.
They do the same sort of thing. Mae is always emailing us with opportunities for this and how we can help out and lift up the Open Mainframe project community as well. So these are the sorts of things that you work because you’ve got to pay the bills and get your kids through college and do all of those sorts of good things. But for me, a big part of why you work, why you get up each day and get excited about your job is the extra stuff that you can do, the contributing to the community and helping lift other people up as many as you can and all of this sort of stuff. So I’m looking at that thing on the shelf behind you. I should say, this is the way, shouldn’t I?
Steven Dickens:
The Mandalorian, This is the way.
Darren Surch:
This is the way.
Steven Dickens:
So we could carry on talking for hours here, Darren, but my job’s to keep us on track, there’s two questions I always ask of all the guests, and I’m going to be fascinated to hear your answers. So if you’ve listened to the show, you know what’s coming, one of the questions is you get a chance to go back to that 21-year-old Darren living in the bush maybe, and you maybe get a chance to go and speak to them and give them some advice from your career. What advice would that be to give to your younger self?
Darren Surch:
First advice would be watch out for that bloody snake,
Steven Dickens:
Or that spider.
Darren Surch:
No, I’d say, and I know it was different back when I started because there wasn’t the technology and LinkedIn and social media, well, LinkedIn specifically has made it a big thing now, but when I first started it was really insular. You go and you do your job and you’d interact with the people you worked with and that was about it. But it’s really important for your career and just for your joy in doing your job is to really network, build up that personal network, and get to know other people. When you go to SHARE conferences, join in on conversations. Like you said, the mainframe industry is amazing. I used to be intimidated when all these super smart or experienced people would be having a conversation. I think the last thing I want to do is go and talk to them because I’m going to make a fool of myself here, but the mainframe industry is just remarkable.
I mean, everybody wants to help. We all feel like a community, like a family, and we want to lift people up. So I would say to my younger self, just get involved, meet people, get to know people. Obviously digitally connect with LinkedIn and reach out and so forth. Coaching and mentoring as well. Everybody in their career should have a mentor or multiple mentors and try and be a mentor. It doesn’t matter if you’re young, try and be a mentor yourself. Try and help lift other people up. Yeah, pay it forward. Exactly. So build up that professional network, I suppose, is a long answer to a short question.
Steven Dickens:
The other question I always ask, and it’s going to be interesting to get your perspective here, because we’ve talked about skills and, it’s hilarious, I see my daughters wearing flared jeans and I’m like,
Darren Surch:
Retro
Steven Dickens:
Stuff comes back around and we talked about it from a skills perspective. Where do you see us three years, five years out for the mainframe space?
Darren Surch:
Skills wise? I mean, education and skills is changing. I think AI is going to make a big difference in education. It’s certainly going to make our job a lot easier, helping us to develop content and so forth. But you can’t develop, especially in the mainframe space, it’s highly technical stuff. You can’t develop good content with AI, and I don’t care how advanced AI gets, although if this show is in a hundred years, AI may be running the place, but as far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t matter how sophisticated AI is, you still need experienced senior mainframers to be going through this stuff and putting their experience and their real world examples and wisdom and all of that sort of stuff. So good courseware is always going to have that human element because it gives insight and all of those other things as well. You can’t just churn out good training.
It’s like everybody’s experience at high school or at university. You can have a teacher who really connects and teaches well, will make a difference over somebody that’s just reading out of a book. So good training will always need people, but AI is going to speed things up. What you and I were talking about earlier, I think people are going to, for their careers, are going to follow the track of the mainframe. Remember, the mainframe used to be this sort of monolithic thing and everything was inside your coded COBOL and CICS and you worked on the mainframe with all the stuff that IBM’s done, open source and just the mainframe in general. It now talks to everything. You can code in all these other languages that aren’t traditionally mainframe languages,
Steven Dickens:
Containers on the platform.
Darren Surch:
Exactly. So the mainframe is coming to the world. The world’s not having to come to the mainframe. The mainframe’s opening up to the world, and again, the Open Mainframe project, Linux Foundation, open source is key to the future of the mainframe because it’s going to bring a lot more innovation. It’s going to bring a lot of people that wouldn’t traditionally be on the mainframe and their ideas and their creativity and their things to open up a lot of doors for the mainframe. Speaking three years out, I think the last, and this is your domain, but I think the last few months seeing Broadcom buy VMware, seeing Rocket buy OpenText or acquire a component of it, BMC got, what was it? Something Title something nine. Model nine. Model nine, yeah. The big organizations are showing that direction at the moment.
Just with these acquisitions I think they’re really given a good hint as to where the mainframes pushing and AI is going to be important in that and connectivity and just blending with all the other systems. So that hybrid cloud is real. The mainframe still does what the mainframe does better than any other system, and as far as I’m concerned, there’s no substitute and there’s really nothing else, especially with quantum becoming more to the fore, I think data’s not going to be safe anymore. Kudos to IBM for coming up with quantum safe encryption and things like that because all of these other systems are just going to be open to be broken into once quantum starts to become more on, so the mainframe for security and transaction and so forth, it’s just going to be this big data hub. I think, and I’m on a rant here, but I think there’s so much data out there. The data’s the value and that the amount of data that we collect every day in the business world, which is where IBM mainframe is, but just in general, there’s an enormous amount of that data that just sits there and never gets looked at. I’m not sure what the industry term is for that, but it never gets looked at. So with AI now,
Steven Dickens:
Being able to expose that,
Darren Surch:
AI can be just constantly at it, looking through decades of data and finding patterns or finding trends or finding insights, you know what I mean? Again, where would you have that happen but the mainframe. Whatever it is, 86%, 88% of the world’s business data still sits on mainframes. So it’s the center of the business world, but I think the mainframe’s going to be the center for this data, and instead of just looking at the last six months data or the current stuff that’s going on or whatever, I think companies are really going to start to dig back through decades of stuff and really look at trends and insights and things that’ll give them a competitive edge over their competitors and that sort of stuff. Anyway, way, way on. But I think the mainframe’s always going to remain at the center of that. Again, because of the way it protects the data and the amount of uptime, you hear some of the other distributed systems and cloud stuff seems to be up on social media every other month that there’s been an outage here or outage there, or a data lost or whatever. But the mainframe protects that stuff better than anyone. I’ll stop now.
Very interesting stuff. It’s very, very cool to look at that.
Steven Dickens:
This is always the challenge for this show. They line me up to speak to some fantastic people, and then they try and ask me to do it in 25, 30 minutes. So Darren, it’s been fantastic to you have on the show. Really glad we’ve been able to dig in. I’ve learned some things and I’ve known you for years, so hopefully the listeners and viewers did too. You’ve been watching another episode of the I’m a Mainframer podcast. Please click and do all those subscribe things to make the show grow and share with your friends and colleagues, and we’ll see you next time. Thank you very much for watching.
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